ROUGH EDITED COPY

UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY – CASEY JUDD

EHDI 2019 – TOPICAL SESSION 4 & 5 – INTERNATIONAL F
MARCH 4, 2018
2:45 P.M. ET

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	(Writer standing by.) 
>> SPEAKER:  I don't know about the picture part.
(Laughing.)
>> SPEAKER:  I'm just kidding.  I'm not sure I'm camera‑ready.  Hello, everyone.  I'm Lisa Kovacs.  I am the director of programs for Hands & Voices headquarters.  I've been with Hands & Voices for 15 years now.  I was the, um, founding parent in Indiana, my home state.  That's where I still, I work out of my office at home and do lots of traveling, doing trainings.  I oversee our Guide By Your Side program, which I'm going to be talking about today, which is our parent‑to‑parent support program.  We have currently 27 programs in the U.S. and Canada, and then, um, I also oversee our Astra program, which is advocacy, support, and training, and that's our educational advocacy program, and we have 13 of those programs, and then we just started a new program this year called leadership to leadership, and it's a, um, family leader training program, and, um, so I also have added that to my list.  I am a parent myself, I have an 18‑year‑old son who is, um, hard of hearing and has auditory neuropathy, and he's really how I got started in doing this work.  I'm very passionate about building family leaders, as well as, um, special education advocacy for deaf and hard of hearing kids.  
So, today, I really hope, um, to give you a good introduction to our Guide By Your Side program.  How many of you are familiar with, one second.  The slides are not advancing.  There we go.  How many of you are familiar with Hands & Voices?  So, maybe a few who are not.  Hands & Voices is 22 years old now.  It started in Colorado by a group of parents and professionals who were really just fed up with the war around communication, they were really, um, looking to start an organization where all families, no matter what decisions they made for their children, would feel welcomed.  They never intended to grow to where we are today, 22 years later, with 50 chapters in the U.S. and Canada, or 47 approved chapters, and we have three still in the start‑up process right now.  Guide By Your Side has been in existence, I would say for about, um, 15 years, and all of our chapters, um, in those 47 states, um, are doing parent‑to‑parent support, but many times, it's on a volunteer basis.  What Guide By Your Side did is it formalized the parent‑to‑parent support training that we were doing, it developed a parent‑to‑parent support curriculum, which I'll be sharing some with you today, and, um, it also put paid positions, Guide By Your Side requires funding, so all of our programs have funding from various, um, funding agencies.  Many of them are funded through their EHDI programs at the state or territory level, some Guide By Your Side programs are funded out of their schools for the deaf, some are funded out of their Office of Deaf and Hard of Hearing Services.  
We really look and encourage our programs to actually have a diversity of different funding agencies, but, um, it's really modeled after our unbiased support and philosophy to parents, either new into the journey or, um, families who, as we all know, or as I know, having an 18‑year‑old son, um, I've had different needs of parent support throughout those 18 years of journey.  Just when I think everything's going great, you know, middle school happens, you know, and I really wanted to talk to parents who had children who were in middle school, or, like, right now, my son's getting ready to transition to college, so it's really great for me to be able to connect to parents who have already had children who have gone through college.  So, that's what we really, um, look to do, is make that parent‑to‑parent connection.  Also, we know that we're not the only support families need, so, um, Hands & Voices and NCHAM actually created this model several years ago, and, so, Guide By Your Side has the top two components of family support, we have both parent‑to‑parent support built into our Guide By Your Side programs, and then some of our Guide By Your Side programs also have deaf and hard of hearing adult‑to‑parent support, and I'll describe, um, the role of both of those in a minute.  
Um, we want to make sure through our parent‑to‑parent support and our deaf adult‑to‑parent support that we work with families to make sure that they're getting access to really good comprehensive information, because we know that's a piece that families need, we want to make sure that they are working with, um, professionals who are qualified based on the decisions that their family has made, because we know that, sometimes, can be an issue, families' access to qualified professionals, and we also want to make sure, although they develop a new community within our Deaf and Hard of Hearing community, we want to help them stay connected with their existing communities too, because, sometimes, when families have a deaf or hard of hearing child, all of a sudden, they start wondering if they still fit into their communities, so we want to help them, how do they stay connected with extended family members, friends, neighbors, um, places in the community.  The foundations of Guide By Your Side start with parent leadership.  So, all of your Guide By Your Side coordinators are parents themselves of deaf or hard of hearing children.  We look for really good collaboration within our chapters and Guide By Your Side programs, so you actually cannot implement a Guide By Your Side program without a Hands & Voices chapter, so it must be implemented within a Hands & Voices chapter, so that the chapter can have oversight of the program.  
If you're sitting here right now and going, well, why did I come into this session, because we don't have a chapter in my state, or, um, we are, um, you know, wanting to implement this in our organization that's not Hands & Voices, I will tell you that just this year, we produced a document, um, that myself and a couple colleagues, um, wrote called The Family‑to Family Support Guidelines, program guidelines, and it's up on our website under the FL3 section, and then under providing family support, and it is the framework in which we built Guide By Your Side on.  So, if you're wanting to implement a program very similar to Guide By Your Side, this provides you the structure of how to do that.  What it's not going to provide you is, you know, us as trainers and our training curriculum, but it gives you how to design the structure so then you can develop your training curriculum around providing parent‑to‑parent support.  Our program, back to Guide By Your Side, is based on, um, our non‑biased support, as well as being able to support families, um, across whatever decisions they make, school placement, communication and language.  We train our parent guides, we do not match them, oh, your child uses listening and spoken language, you're only going to work with the listening and spoken language families, absolutely not.  We train our staff so that they can work with all families, and believe it or not, as a mother of an 18‑year‑old, I will tell you, it's not all about what language or communication, um, you know, it's funny, I think it was last year here at the conference, it hit me, because there was a lot of controversy around that going on, and I'd just walked out of a session, and I was asked to speak to a group of pediatricians, and the only thing I kept thinking about is that previous conversation I just left, um, really had minimized who my son, Anthony, is, because everybody in that context of that conversation, when they were having that conversation, they were taking all deaf and hard of hearing kids and identifying them based on what language or languages or communication modes or mode they're using.  
My son, Anthony, has so much more, and all of our kids are so much more than just the language or communication they use.  He's an avid cyclist, he works at our church, he has friends, he has, you know, he loves photography.  That is what I want people to think about, um, when I think about my son, and so that's the value we bring into our Guide By Your Side program and our training with our parent guides, is talking with families about, although those decisions are important and we've got to make those decisions and we've got to really focus on language and literacy, we also got to think about the social emotional needs of our kids and really helping families support the whole child.  We also really look at cultural representation and sensitivity, and, of course, deaf culture, but then there are so many, um, cultures that families come to us with, um, that we want to make sure that we understand or we find resources so that we can understand, so we can meet the needs of families who come from cultures that might be different from our own.  We look at supporting families and their unique needs.  Honestly, when I first got started and I started supporting families, I only knew my story, but now, 15 years later, and I was the Guide By Your Side program coordinator in my state, um, and I contacted all families who were newly identified, which is about 250 families a year for 5 years, now, my experience and my ability to support the unique needs of families is not at all about my family story, but it's about all the families that have contributed to my understanding of the unique needs of families.  
We, um, really work for cohesion within all of our Guide By Your Side programs, so that they're all working together and leaning on one another.  We do require, like I said, that all positions are paid.  I also remember going to meetings in my early years as a parent leader, and I was the only one sitting at the table, um, at meetings who, um, wasn't being paid to be there, and it was actually costing me, and costing me big, because I had four small kids at home, so my baby‑sitting bills were huge, and I probably had to pay for parking and, um, so, we really, when we built this program, and I encourage you, if you're going to build a parent support program, to really put in that these positions should be paid positions, and then it's very important to us that it's not just about the initial training, when we come in and do the first two days of initial training, but that there's ongoing training and support.  So, I do a quarterly call with all of our Guide By Your Side coordinators, where we always have a training component, and then we have ongoing trainings that we encourage at each one of our program levels, to make sure that they're constantly, um, training and providing additional educational opportunities for their parent support and deaf adult support providers.  Our program goals, um, include providing parents with the opportunity to establish a supportive relationship with another parent who's kind of been there, done that.  
There's just something to be said about being able to connect with a family that way.  I was recently conducting a Guide By Your Side training, and, um, I was noticing one of the parent guides who had just recently been hired, um, I could see she was kind of teary‑eyed during one part, and I thought, oh my gosh, what have I done?  Certainly didn't expect to see tears, and, so, I waited till the break, and I went back and checked on her and said are you okay, and she said, yeah, I'm okay, but she said, um, my daughter's 17, and she said this program is so beautiful, and this opportunity to be able to connect with another family, she said I'm looking at everything I'm learning now and just wondering what the early part of my journey would have been like if I would have had access to a program like this, and I thought, wow, how do you quantify that in any kind of data, you know?  It just was, um, really impactful to me, to see that we do make a difference in the lives of families.  Um, goal number two is to provide the understanding, like I said, of the unique needs of families, so really talking with families about getting out there, we really look for parent guides who, first of all, are not new on their own journey, but that they're ready, um, in their own journey to be able to support others.  Of course, providing unbiased information to families.  
You know, it seems, it's just not a big deal in our programs, because we don't have a stake in it, um, we're not a professional coming from, you know, a particular background, we're just families ourselves too, and, so, like, I think, I would never want to be responsible of guiding a family down a particular path, maybe my own path that we chose as a family, without having any control over what those outcomes are going to be like for that family, right?  So, I think that's why we have such strong belief in families being able to be their own decision‑makers and guiding them and giving them tools to make those decisions, but not at all trying to direct them, um, into one decision or another.  Once again, we know we're not all that families need.  We want to make sure that we're here to help accelerate linking them to local resources, regional resources, state/province resources, and even national resources that are out there.  We want to ensure that families have information about getting them into the early intervention program and how to get into the early intervention program and the benefits of early intervention.  I remember always telling families that, um, so, I had these infant twins who were both born prematurely, and they both needed early intervention, and no one, you know, told me what to expect when I was having my first early intervention meeting, so I remember they walked in, and I was sitting with these infant twins, and I had a 2 and 4‑year‑old running around my house, and the lady looked at me and said, so, what are your goals for your children?  I honestly said I just want them to eat and sleep, I want to get some sleep, and I had no idea that when I, what I said were our goals was going to drive what kind of services, I mean, luckily, she didn't base our services on what I said, but now, I look back and go, oh, that was a really silly answer, so, you know, I always encourage our programs to get out there before early intervention, show the family what an IFSP form looks like, tell the family these are some of the questions that early intervention is going to ask, so that they feel a little bit more prepared of what to expect for that process.  
Ensure that, um, families are connected to other parent‑to‑parent support resources.  So, at Hands & Voices, we know we are not the only support out there, we want families to get connected to American Society for Deaf Children and AG Bell and non‑disability family, um, support organizations, like Family Voices, so part of our role is also to share other family‑based organization supports with families as well.  Then, of course, connecting families to deaf and hard of hearing adults.  When my son was born, I had never met a deaf or hard of hearing adult, and so it's really important for us to be able to give families opportunities to make those connections, so they can see into the future of their child.  Then, finally, to ensure that families' voices are heard in the systems that serve them, so we can be their voice until they can be the voice in the system.  So, our model of support is providing families support so they can be emotionally ready to take on the responsibilities that they're going to need for their own child, and then we want to provide them with really good information, and then we want to be able to model for them.  So, we're parents ourselves, so they can see us and see how we're functioning as a family who has a child who's deaf or hard of hearing.  So, when you think about this support information and modeling, what we always talk about is providing the level of support, um, and modeling that the family needs, but to not provide too much that they rely on you and they don't take on that responsibility themselves.  
Our role is to empower them so that they're ready to then take on these responsibilities.  So, our job description for our parent guides within Guide By Your Side is, um, that they must be a parent of a child who's deaf or hard of hearing, deaf‑blind, deaf with additional needs.  We really look for diversity of lived experiences, and a program must start with a group of parent guides who do have, um, different lived experiences, whether it's the degree of hearing loss that the child has or whether it's, you know, they're using technology or they're not, um, we want a variety of, um, chosen language or communication modes, so we really look for a diversity of a team, and that's something that everyone always questions, is, well, we have, you know, early intervention providers, what's the need for Guide By Your Side?  We are not providing early intervention services, we are not, like, I, maybe, after all these years, could describe an audiogram, and I might say, first of all, I want you to know, I'm just a parent, like you, this is my understanding, but you really need to check with your audiologist.  Whatever it might be that would fall into the category outside of me just being able to provide parent‑to‑parent support, we do want to refer them back to those professionals, so we're not here to supplant any other of the important providers that need to be in the family's life.  
I mentioned that some of our programs also have deaf and hard of hearing guides.  This is very different than deaf mentor programs.  Deaf mentor programs, where they're providing ASL instruction and deaf culture instruction, those programs are fantastic, and we did not want to duplicate those programs.  That's not ours.  Our program of deaf and hard of hearing guides are, once again, it's a requirement to hire a diverse group of deaf and hard of hearing guides and lived experiences, if you're going to have this component, so that families can see a hard of hearing/deaf adult or a profoundly deaf adult or a deaf adult with unilateral hearing, so we really look to, when we're providing this, it's all just about, you know, talk to me about your college experiences, talk to me about your work experiences.  I mean, we have two fabulous deaf adults that work on our staff, and they have the funniest stories, and I don't want to, um, take their stories away from them, about what some hearing parents have asked them, you know, that I just, I'm blushing, because I can't even tell you some of those experiences, but you can just imagine sometimes, a hearing parent might ask certain questions about, you know, relational, um, issues and, you know, how have you done that, you know, as a deaf or hard of hearing adult, and, so, once again, our role is just so that they can, um, learn from lived experiences, it's not about coming in and teaching any kind of language instruction.  
This is our initial training curriculum.  So, we, of course, want to make sure that they really understand who Hands & Voices is as an organization, because they are representing Hands & Voices when they are, um, in the Guide By Your Side program.  We have a whole training course around supporting families without bias and how do you do that.  We have a session around encountering emotions of the families, so how are you, are you ready to be able to encounter some of the emotions that you might experience families having, and trust me, it is a variety from elation, because they were expecting having a deaf or hard of hearing child, to absolute devastation, because it was not what they were expecting, and, really, everything in between, anger, um, confusion, all kinds of emotions, so we really work through how to handle those emotions, if you encounter them with a family.  We also talk about the art of telling their own story.  We want to make sure we don't unintentionally bias a family by telling parts of our own personal story that might influence a family's decision.  Like, they might just look at a parent guide and say, well, you seem to have it all together, so if you did such and such, well, that's what we're going to do.  Well, we all know that would be a really bad basis of making an important decision, so we really talk about how to tell your story with a family, um, and it's only for the purpose of encouraging them to share pieces for them so that you can support them, it's not about us going in and, you know, telling our whole story.  
Then we have, so, all of our parent guides and deaf and hard of hearing guides go through those four trainings, and then for parent guides, we have a session called the role of the parent guide, and this really talks about what their role is and what their role is not, and then we also have a session that's called what do I say when, and this is my favorite session, because we've come up with, you know, common questions that families are going to ask, and we role play for an hour and a half how you're going to respond to that question, and, um, it's just, you know, some of the very common questions we've heard over the years.  Then our deaf and hard of hearing guides, when the parent guides are going through that part of the training, they actually go through the role of the deaf or hard of hearing guide, and then they have a session called deaf or hard of hearing guides, working with parents, and this is, um, also talking with deaf and hard of hearing adults, because they may be surprised about some of the emotions they encounter from a hearing parent, because, maybe, they haven't experienced that, so we really work with them about how to deal with that themselves, if it's something that really surprises them that a hearing parent may be having a reaction to.  Then we have additional considerations, which is really kind of the kitchen sink of everything else that, um, they really want to consider.  We talk a lot about how they can partner with their parent guide in working with families.  Sometimes, that's, um, some of the most, um, beautiful visits, is when both the parent guide and the deaf and hard of hearing individual can go out together on a visit, um, with a family, and then a long list, that initial training, like I said, we have our, um, monthly teleconference calls, um, many of our Guide By Your Side programs do an annual family conference, they do twice‑a‑year in‑person trainings, they host webinars, and then parent guides have lots of other opportunities, like coming to this conference, attending our Hands & Voices national leadership conference, local trainings in their states, so we just really want to keep them engaged and learning.  
So, um, of course, there's capacity, because there's funding, how many parent guides and deaf and hard of hearing guides can a program have?  So, you really need to look at your community and what your community's needing, but this is just, I keep a running list of the specialty guides that we have across all of our programs, because, you know, Pennsylvania may have a parent guide who has, um, an experience, their child has a, um, brainstem implant, which is very, um, unique compared to a cochlear implant, and we're not going to have that in our other 27 programs, and, so, they also will help each other out, and so we keep a list, a database, of some of our real specialty experiences within our parent guides, and we will share, but many of the programs are looking at, like, I just was in my Indiana state meeting, and they said 24 percent of our families that have enrolled in Guide By Your Side have been Spanish‑speaking, and I think part of that is because we have a Spanish‑speaking parent guide, so, you know, what would that delivery of service look like if we didn't have that parent guide?  Um, but once again, every community is going to be a little bit different, so you need to look.  Um, deaf plus, so for a family to be able to connect with another parent who has a child who's deaf with additional conditions really makes a difference, and, um, so, you can see all the different ones we have here.  Within our program structure, we have developed three different levels.  All of our parent guides start out at level one.  In the professional world, you might call this credentialing.  That was a little too professional sounding for us, so we call ours leveled recognition.  
So, all of our guides go through what's called the leveled recognition program, so after their initial training, they're all at the parent guide level, and then they can work up as they develop their skills, we have, um, competencies that they can work on, and they can go up from a lead guide, all the way up to a senior guide, and then they also have to earn what we call activity points throughout the year, they keep track of these, and then they submit to us at Hands & Voices headquarters, and these activity points are, um, ways that they can show ongoing learning that they've done throughout the year.  So, we wanted to make sure that that was built into our program, that it wasn't a one and done of us coming in and training, but that we can demonstrate that they're continuing to receive ongoing training.  Now, this is something really exciting that we started working on, um, several years ago, and we're almost full steam ahead.  This is a conceptual framework, an evidence‑based conceptual framework of parent‑to‑parent support.  I'm going to read some of my notes from this.  Um, we, um, researchers Moodie, Henderson and Johnson did a scoping review of 39 peer‑reviewed articles on family‑to‑family support from 2000 to 2014, and then they sought stakeholders' opinion and feedback, so they had 31 experts from 7 countries with experience in the provision, research, in the areas of parent‑to‑parent support, and they developed an online questionnaire.  Myself and Janet from Hands & Voices were two of the participants that got to, um, provide feedback on the development of this evidence‑based model, so we're really excited to now be able to say that within our Guide By Your Side program, we're implementing this evidence‑based model.  
Our process has, um, been slow, but it's been important to take time, so we've been looking at, um, how do we work with families around these components of the child and parent, um, well‑being, and then looking at knowledge, so for the families, knowledge and advocacy, systems navigation and transition and education, and then what about empowerment?  So, um, competence and confidence of the family.  So, we first started by, like I said, we participated in the development of it, we work really closely with Dr. Sheila Moodie, she's thrilled to see us implementing this within Hands & Voices, we developed a work group of our Guide By Your Side coordinators who then looked at this conceptual framework and developed family learning outcomes, if you look on the right, and I know this is really small print, but you can find this on our website or the link, I have here for the full article, so within all of these, um, components on the right‑hand side, like self‑determination, participation, goals, we developed family learning outcomes for every one of those, they are on the right‑hand side.  It took lots of time, it took about a year, once we started drafting those and, um, making edits to those, and then from that point, we took the family learning outcomes, because, you know, early intervention providers could be implementing within these domains, but what we did is put our parent‑to‑parent support hats on and thought, now, what are some of the parent‑to‑parent support activities that would be, you know, let's take self‑determination, so if whatever the family's outcome might be to promote self‑determination, you know, they've improved, they will report they've improved their, um, child's self‑determination, um, and that might be, so then we developed a parent‑to‑parent support activity, where it might be that the parent support provider has, um, shared their lived experiences themselves as to what they did to promote self‑determination for their child and family, and what were some of those activities that they did with their own family that they could share with that family, so see how that would be very specific to parent‑to‑parent support.  
So, we have all of those drafted now, and, um, we, just last week, I received back, we did a quality improvement process, and we did a study act based on, um, six parent guides actually taking this model and going out and implementing some of those parent‑to‑parent support activities, and I'm collecting that data now, so that we can then decide exactly how we're going to then best implement this evidence‑based model within our Guide By Your Side programs.  So, again, the Moodie model is up on our website under the FL3 section, you, too, could do this very same thing in your family‑based organization, um, if you're not working within a state that has a Hands & Voices chapter.  So, our Guide By Your Side program implementation, um, it looks a little bit different in every state, because it's based on the objectives of the funder, right?  So, we have to be able to, um, be responsive to the funding agency.  So, some of our programs start at did not pass newborn hearing screening or referral, so there are parent guides who are encouraging families to get in for their additional follow‑up screening or for their diagnostic testing, but not all of our programs start at that point, because, maybe, their, you know, that system's already setup in their state.  All of our programs start at diagnosis, for sure.  Um, some have limitations about how long a parent guide, because, once again, there's not, um, endless funding, unfortunately, so some of our programs have limited, you know, the parent guide can do, you know, on average, six visits with each family, and then they really need to then transition that family back over to the Hands & Voices chapter, and the family wouldn't be receiving that one‑on‑one, um, parent support or that deaf adult to parent support.  Other programs have no funding limitation, or they have a diversity of funders, so that they're able to actually serve families, you know, birth to, you know, 21, so it really depends.  
So, I don't have any two Guide By Your Side programs that are exactly the same.  So, if you're sitting here and thinking, gosh, we really want to start a Guide By Your Side program, so, first of all, you really want to go, when I get a phone call, I say go back to your funding agency, go back to your chapter, go back to your state or province, and really start talking about what are the priorities, what are our program goals and objectives that we want Guide By Your Side to accomplish, so what are we looking for within parent‑to‑parent support and deaf adult‑to‑parent support within our state or province, and then we, um, look at, um, do you have the infrastructure at your chapter level to provide the oversight that you're going to need for that program, and then, um, contact me.  We have an operations manual, we have a start‑up process and a checklist.  Of course, you've got to secure, um, funding for the program, and then we have an application process, where our chapters can apply to us to start a program, and then, um, identifying parents with the appropriate skills level, and then, um, securing a location for your training, and then we work on, um, developing the training agenda.  Um, so, once again, all of this is in that infrastructure of our parent‑to‑parent program support guidelines, this is some of the recommendations we make, whether you're looking at starting a Guide By Your Side program or any other parent‑to‑parent support program.  So, we, um, we want to make sure, um, that we're providing a measurement, so we have evaluations ‑‑
(Off mic.)
>> SPEAKER:  We have Guide By Your Side in 27 states, actually 26 states and one province in Canada.
(Off mic.)
>> SPEAKER:  Um, also within our trainings, we have pre and post‑test, so we always want to look for growth of learning from before the training and after the training.  Um, we have an annual coordinator training at our leadership conference each year, and then each program provides what we call an annual health assessment, so there's indicators that we've established that a program is operating at a healthy level, and they complete these each year and provide those back to us at Hands & Voices headquarters.  As far as, um, learning from our families and consumers, um, of course, they, um, provide back to us training evaluations as well.  Parent satisfaction surveys, are they happy with the services that they were provided through Guide By Your Side, and then we collect family testimonials, that really helps us understand the impact that the program's having on families, and then based on the conceptual framework and those parent‑to‑parent support activities, we will be working with, um, Dr. Sheila Moodie, and she's going to help us then start getting more than just satisfaction data, but family outcome measures, how has this made a difference in the family's life.  So, here's just a few things that families have said about Guide By Your Side.  I knew 30 minutes was going to be really hard for me, and I even took out, like, 20 slides, but I think I have 2 minutes.  She's not going to hold that sign up yet and tell me time's up, so any questions?  What questions can I answer?  Yes?  And if you don't mind, so we can get it on captioning.
>> SPEAKER:  What if the families fall under more than one specialized category?  What if they're Spanish‑speaking, have other disabilities, are late onset?
>> SPEAKER:  So, how do you match them with a parent guide?  So, a lot of time, we try to match families based on the parent guide that's in their region, and then we can also, so, that parent guide would be their ongoing parent guide, but then we can connect them with those specialty guides as well, so they don't have to just be assigned to one parent guide.  Maybe one more question, and then I'll stick around, if anybody wants to come up and ask a question.  Okay, great.  I'll be up here, if anybody has any questions.  Thanks so much for coming and hearing a little bit more about our Hands & Voices Guide By Your Side program.  

This is being provided in a rough-draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation(CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.